Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:06 pm
Dragonfire wrote:I think it's stupid that they banned Santa. Yes, there was a Saint Nicholas, but Coca-Cola was the one who created the jolly fat man in a red suit. The real St. Nick was born in Turkey as a Christian. He was the patron saint of children in the West. The only reason why he became Santa Claus was because he gave gifts. In other parts of the world, he is the patron saint of sailors.
While we're at it, I know one of my friends (Not myself) celebrates St. Nicklaus as the pagan saint of giving. He has many different forms and many different purposes. However, Coco-Cola was not who created Santa Claus as we know him today.
I see no point in banning Santa Claus. I used to be Christian, my mom would be all up in arms about Santa taking away in the meaning of Christmas, and I always used to tell her "No mom, he doesn't, we do. If you teach a child right what the true meaning of Christmas is, then that child will know. If you don't, it becomes a season of giving and good will towards others. That's what Santa represents, not gimme gimme gimme."
Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:31 pm
To me, this seems exactly like what happend a couple years ago about banning halloween because it was started by the druids(true, but the people banning it were christian when the druids were celtic and celticism[or whatever it was called] is now a part of christianity)
back on topic, I know more people who are not christian then i do who are, they aren't bothered by santa, so why should the stores be
Also, i am tolerent of other religions, if there were a bunch of hannukah decorations in a store it wouldn't bother me at all, in fact the one thing that does bother me is people saying that druids are satanic, no they're not, they are christian, and i say this as a possible decendant of a druid
back on topic, I know more people who are not christian then i do who are, they aren't bothered by santa, so why should the stores be
Also, i am tolerent of other religions, if there were a bunch of hannukah decorations in a store it wouldn't bother me at all, in fact the one thing that does bother me is people saying that druids are satanic, no they're not, they are christian, and i say this as a possible decendant of a druid
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:50 am
this majority-rules thing has really got to be rethought. just because something is the dominant doesn't mean it should...well...dominate. it's exactly the same as if someone set up a booth for kids to get pentagrams from some guy dressed as satan. put that in a mall and your going to get a huge smurfing protest. maybe some of YOU individually might not mind, but most communities would boycott the mall or something. why? because it's not a majority religion. so why should the majority be allowed to ruin my shopping?
Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:09 pm
skizzy the wonder lizard wrote:this majority-rules thing has really got to be rethought. just because something is the dominant doesn't mean it should...well...dominate. it's exactly the same as if someone set up a booth for kids to get pentagrams from some guy dressed as satan. put that in a mall and your going to get a huge smurfing protest. maybe some of YOU individually might not mind, but most communities would boycott the mall or something. why? because it's not a majority religion. so why should the majority be allowed to ruin my shopping?
I think thats abit of a silly comparison to make, first of all satanism is nothing more than a cult (some would also say that it is impossible to believe in satan without believing in christianity), whereas santa claus stands for giving gifts, the idea of having santa in a store is nothing about christianity it is about making children happy by giving them a present. We live in a world where children can turn on the tv and see images of war, starvation and a hate filled world, why begrudge them the opportunity to see somebody who will make them feel like children again?
Secondly, we are talking about a shopping centre in the UK, the official (for want of a better word) religion of the UK is the Church of England which is a christian based religion. Why on earth can people not celebrate their own countries religion? If I visited any other country I would expect to see them celebrating their religious holidays, regardless of whether it is a 'majority religion.' I used to live in an area of london where the majority of residents were non christians and I was not offended when the local shops were selling items related to their gods or religious holidays. I just expect the same for my religion.
Is there not a saying, "when in Rome...."?
Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:32 pm
We have the same discussion here in the Netherlands. We have this tradition that Saint Nick, Santa's little Helper comes from Spain with a ship full of candy which is brought to children by the black Petes ("Zwarte Piet") who are painted all black on their skin, like raven dark black...
Originally Saint Nick was a bishop who came and brought oranges from Spain and he had slaves back then to help him carry stuff. That was like 600 years ago or so (and I'm not even sure if it's a true story or just made up). Anyhow. Since then he always coms every year with a boat (just last weekend again...) with the black coloured dudes.
All the dutch people I know, grew up thinking that the black Petes are black in their face because they climbed down the chimbny to put presents in their shoes at night. It does not even enter their mind that it comes from actual coloured people. It may originate from that point but nowadays it has nothing to do with it anymore.
Same with Santa. He's a symbol for Christmas, mostly non-christian x-mas anyways because christians have otehr symbols for christmas. And yes it's right that the big jolly big fellow is from the coca cola design. When you look at "Father Christmas" images from before coca cola he always resemble a church bishop more than what we see now.
I personally think people make big issues out of the wrong things. When you step back and think about it, it's so unimportant. Nobody is offended. Who are they to say what people see in Santa anyways? It's different for everyone.
I hope you get Santa to come back. Good luck!
Originally Saint Nick was a bishop who came and brought oranges from Spain and he had slaves back then to help him carry stuff. That was like 600 years ago or so (and I'm not even sure if it's a true story or just made up). Anyhow. Since then he always coms every year with a boat (just last weekend again...) with the black coloured dudes.
All the dutch people I know, grew up thinking that the black Petes are black in their face because they climbed down the chimbny to put presents in their shoes at night. It does not even enter their mind that it comes from actual coloured people. It may originate from that point but nowadays it has nothing to do with it anymore.
Same with Santa. He's a symbol for Christmas, mostly non-christian x-mas anyways because christians have otehr symbols for christmas. And yes it's right that the big jolly big fellow is from the coca cola design. When you look at "Father Christmas" images from before coca cola he always resemble a church bishop more than what we see now.
I personally think people make big issues out of the wrong things. When you step back and think about it, it's so unimportant. Nobody is offended. Who are they to say what people see in Santa anyways? It's different for everyone.
I hope you get Santa to come back.
Good luck!
Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:10 am
xjox wrote:skizzy the wonder lizard wrote:this majority-rules thing has really got to be rethought. just because something is the dominant doesn't mean it should...well...dominate. it's exactly the same as if someone set up a booth for kids to get pentagrams from some guy dressed as satan. put that in a mall and your going to get a huge smurfing protest. maybe some of YOU individually might not mind, but most communities would boycott the mall or something. why? because it's not a majority religion. so why should the majority be allowed to ruin my shopping?
I think thats abit of a silly comparison to make, first of all satanism is nothing more than a cult (some would also say that it is impossible to believe in satan without believing in christianity),
so what if it's a cult? you're missing my point entirely. just because you think it's "nothing more" doesn't mean people don't believe in it. it doesn't make it an invalid religion.
whereas santa claus stands for giving gifts, the idea of having santa in a store is nothing about christianity it is about making children happy by giving them a present.
pentagrams can't be gifts? again, just because it's not mainstream doesn't make it invalid.
We live in a world where children can turn on the tv and see images of war, starvation and a hate filled world, why begrudge them the opportunity to see somebody who will make them feel like children again?
why alienate the children who don't celebrate? why must non-christmas-celebrating children be forced to walk past their friends in line to see santa? why must those children's parents be put on the spot every year when they want to go shopping and have to try and explain to a four-year-old why he can't go sit on santa's lap like his nursery school mates?
Secondly, we are talking about a shopping centre in the UK, the official (for want of a better word) religion of the UK is the Church of England which is a christian based religion. Why on earth can people not celebrate their own countries religion? If I visited any other country I would expect to see them celebrating their religious holidays, regardless of whether it is a 'majority religion.' I used to live in an area of london where the majority of residents were non christians and I was not offended when the local shops were selling items related to their gods or religious holidays. I just expect the same for my religion.
Is there not a saying, "when in Rome...."?
obviously, i'm not debating the right of people to celebrate their own religion. i am, however, taking issue with the notion that "oh, the MAJORITY is okay with it, therefore it must be okay. that was my point with the satanism example. it's perfectly okay to stick this symbol in a public place because it represents a majority religion, but try and put a minority symbol up and just watch what happens. chaos.
it's unfair and discriminatory. i applaud the mall's decision.
Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:02 pm
Oh for the love of pocky...
This is getting ridiculous. If someone's **Post Edited** enough to get offended over something that makes MILLIONS of children happy, they have no right influencing how we spend our December. I'm about as far away from Christianity as you can get, and Christmas is my favorite time of year. Just the excitement of my little brother, the fire, the lights, the NORAD site where you can track Santa's progress around the world...Why would anyone want to take that away?
SaphEdit: Friendly debates are fine, insulting forum members and name calling, are not.
This is getting ridiculous. If someone's **Post Edited** enough to get offended over something that makes MILLIONS of children happy, they have no right influencing how we spend our December. I'm about as far away from Christianity as you can get, and Christmas is my favorite time of year. Just the excitement of my little brother, the fire, the lights, the NORAD site where you can track Santa's progress around the world...Why would anyone want to take that away?
SaphEdit: Friendly debates are fine, insulting forum members and name calling, are not.
Re: What?! No Santa?!
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:03 pm
Twinkle wrote:I didn't know whether to put this in the debating board but I think I'd rather have a discussion on this...
Anyway, lately, I feel that political correctness has got way out of hand. I'm all for equality but it really was ridiculus when my 3 year old cousin came home singing "Baa baa blue sheep". When have you ever seen a blue sheep?!
Actually, there's a flash animation(suitable for 3 year olds) that goes "Baa Baa BLACK sheep Baa baa baa!" So he may just have misinterperted the lyrics.
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:11 pm
Ok, I was a slow kid, but I rarely related Christmas with Christ at all. I thought more along the lines of it being an ideology and belief that is seen in all religions and walks of life. Sure, it's on a major Christian celebration, OK it's a few days after a Jewish Celebration, and right..it's near the Ukrainian New Years..Ok..we've established that...so what? They all mean the samething, atleast, I think so.
I prefer secular celebrations, when you don't relate the day to one religion alone, then it allows people to find their own faith in it. Santa is a representation of what it is to give, He's a jolly fat old guy who likes giving children gifts.
It's a lot of overanaliyzing of something that kids the world over love. I don't think we should look at it and think; "Oh look how different this is." This base ideal is prominent in hundreds of religions and tons of theorys. Even if you say you're without faith, you can't say you say that the idea of giving and being generous and friendly is a bad thing. When we look at things and see whats the same rather than the different, we come closer to our own faiths, atleast, I think so.
There's such a thing as being overtly PC. I think that this is one of them. :-/
I prefer secular celebrations, when you don't relate the day to one religion alone, then it allows people to find their own faith in it. Santa is a representation of what it is to give, He's a jolly fat old guy who likes giving children gifts.
It's a lot of overanaliyzing of something that kids the world over love. I don't think we should look at it and think; "Oh look how different this is." This base ideal is prominent in hundreds of religions and tons of theorys. Even if you say you're without faith, you can't say you say that the idea of giving and being generous and friendly is a bad thing. When we look at things and see whats the same rather than the different, we come closer to our own faiths, atleast, I think so.
There's such a thing as being overtly PC. I think that this is one of them. :-/
Last edited by Xil on Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:12 pm
That's insane. I mean, I dislike those mall Santas because they're so patronizing, even when I was really little, but getting rid of them because they're associated with christmas is insane. Christmas is a national holiday. It's silly to try and cover a national holiday up.
I'm a non-christian, and I totally agree. I don't want "equality" if equality means "let's destroy a multicultural icon and offend billions to avoid offending other billions, most of which wouldn't be offended anyway!" I DID once make a Santa Claus equivalent with Thar and one of her RL friends when I was in first grade, called something like Chanukka Sam, and yes it was lame but it was just as belivable as Santa Claus. Plus he was acted out by a horse beanie baby- score!
People deemed the majority are also deemed worthless. If a minority is offended, GaspShockHorrors! As it should be, because if somebody actually takes offense and isn't just saying they are so they can sue somebody, it must be bad. But if a majority is offended, who cares. That's not what Dr. King meant, I'm sure.
Baa baa blue sheep? Oh dear. What if they offend the Twi'leks from Star Wars who can be blue or green? Come on people. If anyone's actually offended, change it, fine. But this stupid pre-emptive stuff is getting on my nerves.
I'm a non-christian, and I totally agree. I don't want "equality" if equality means "let's destroy a multicultural icon and offend billions to avoid offending other billions, most of which wouldn't be offended anyway!" I DID once make a Santa Claus equivalent with Thar and one of her RL friends when I was in first grade, called something like Chanukka Sam, and yes it was lame but it was just as belivable as Santa Claus. Plus he was acted out by a horse beanie baby- score!
People deemed the majority are also deemed worthless. If a minority is offended, GaspShockHorrors! As it should be, because if somebody actually takes offense and isn't just saying they are so they can sue somebody, it must be bad. But if a majority is offended, who cares. That's not what Dr. King meant, I'm sure.
Baa baa blue sheep? Oh dear. What if they offend the Twi'leks from Star Wars who can be blue or green? Come on people. If anyone's actually offended, change it, fine. But this stupid pre-emptive stuff is getting on my nerves.
Re: What?! No Santa?!
Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:50 am
I don't really see what's so offensive about a guy dressed up in a fat suit. Honestly. Unless they actually had people petition against Santa because they found it offensive I don't see why they shouldn't put on in your mall. They have one in my mall and there's a large Jewish population where I live.
Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:45 am
Wow.
that is just...
stupid. Plain stupid.
I'm Christian, and even though I've never really believed in Santa, and I've always known CHristmas as Jesus' birth, we still had fun 'leaving out cookies and beer for santa' yes, beer, cus my dad didn't want milk, lol. It's just fun to do. It's kind of like discriminating. Really, Santa clause...Saint Nick... Do they have anything against those who believe in Saint Nick? It's absurd. I can't believe they did that!!!! Sure, Santa Clause isn't exactly from any religion or anything, but who cares? It's the spirit of giving. Wow, I really hope you can bring Santa back!
Speaking of that, I was in the village today, (the village being a bunch of shops for one or two blocks, it's pretty sweet. Edgemont Village) and I was in the library, and I heard bells ringing. THen a Hohoho, merry christmas! and Santa was walking around, even inside the library! It was very nice, and it gives you a smile when you see him. I think that banning Santa is one of the stupidest things ever.
that is just...
stupid. Plain stupid.
I'm Christian, and even though I've never really believed in Santa, and I've always known CHristmas as Jesus' birth, we still had fun 'leaving out cookies and beer for santa' yes, beer, cus my dad didn't want milk, lol. It's just fun to do. It's kind of like discriminating. Really, Santa clause...Saint Nick... Do they have anything against those who believe in Saint Nick? It's absurd. I can't believe they did that!!!! Sure, Santa Clause isn't exactly from any religion or anything, but who cares? It's the spirit of giving. Wow, I really hope you can bring Santa back!
Speaking of that, I was in the village today, (the village being a bunch of shops for one or two blocks, it's pretty sweet. Edgemont Village) and I was in the library, and I heard bells ringing. THen a Hohoho, merry christmas! and Santa was walking around, even inside the library! It was very nice, and it gives you a smile when you see him. I think that banning Santa is one of the stupidest things ever.
Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:54 am
Coke didn't invent Santa! They DID, however, exploit the leaving-out-food prospect to a cetain extent so Santa could have cookies and Coke.
But there've been tons of variations of Santa, including Baba Yaga? Okay, whatever, I suppose it WOULD be cool to have someone who eats naughty children instead of giving them coal. Coal's useful anyway, so there.
There've been many Santas around, and Coke, seeing as the Santas it uses in commercials only appear for around thirty seconds tops, there's no way they could have made the whole story up AND involved the coke-and-cookies deal.
Has nobody read Night Before Christmas? (I almost wrote nightmare XD) That was so not based off of some Coca-Cola-invented thing. Especially considering how old it is.
I'm sure I can find an Eowyn quote suitable for this.
No, not that one. Too suicidal.
Nope. Not fitting...
Close but no skull-bashing, W-K...
Er, I'll just use a less-fitting Sam one, to people who want to destroy everything that's politically incorrect-- we have good intentions. It sometimes turns out wrong.
"The enemy. I wonder what his name was, where he comes from. What lies or threats led him from his long trek from home? Would he not rather have stayed there, and was he truly evil at heart?"
Ah heck, that fit even less than the suicidal!Eowyn quote, so I'll put that here too.
Oh forget it... they don't work. Just suffice to say that minorities are not always right for the sole reason they are minorities, and majorities are not always wrong for the sole reason they are majorities. For example-- a white calling a black "smurf" can be suspended for a week at the least. A black calling a black the same has no consequense.
On the other hand, it can work the other way around. A jehovah's witness can give out pamphlets and try to convert people all they want, whereas a muslim would possibly be yelled at or even attacked.
So yeah... if the PCers (not Personal Computers, I bet they all use macs
) are truly striving for equality, why do they ban Santa yet allow Hot Topic? (Not that I have anything against Hot Topic, I like the Foamy shirts and LOTR pins and stuff. I'm just kinda playing Devil's Advocate.) I've seen WAY more people who don't like Hot Topic. *Sighs*
(No, I don't think they should ban Hot Topic, I mean to say they're not playing by their own rules.)
But there've been tons of variations of Santa, including Baba Yaga? Okay, whatever, I suppose it WOULD be cool to have someone who eats naughty children instead of giving them coal. Coal's useful anyway, so there.
There've been many Santas around, and Coke, seeing as the Santas it uses in commercials only appear for around thirty seconds tops, there's no way they could have made the whole story up AND involved the coke-and-cookies deal.
Has nobody read Night Before Christmas? (I almost wrote nightmare XD) That was so not based off of some Coca-Cola-invented thing. Especially considering how old it is.
I'm sure I can find an Eowyn quote suitable for this.
No, not that one. Too suicidal.
Nope. Not fitting...
Close but no skull-bashing, W-K...
Er, I'll just use a less-fitting Sam one, to people who want to destroy everything that's politically incorrect-- we have good intentions. It sometimes turns out wrong.
"The enemy. I wonder what his name was, where he comes from. What lies or threats led him from his long trek from home? Would he not rather have stayed there, and was he truly evil at heart?"
Ah heck, that fit even less than the suicidal!Eowyn quote, so I'll put that here too.
Oh forget it... they don't work. Just suffice to say that minorities are not always right for the sole reason they are minorities, and majorities are not always wrong for the sole reason they are majorities. For example-- a white calling a black "smurf" can be suspended for a week at the least. A black calling a black the same has no consequense.
On the other hand, it can work the other way around. A jehovah's witness can give out pamphlets and try to convert people all they want, whereas a muslim would possibly be yelled at or even attacked.
So yeah... if the PCers (not Personal Computers, I bet they all use macs
) are truly striving for equality, why do they ban Santa yet allow Hot Topic? (Not that I have anything against Hot Topic, I like the Foamy shirts and LOTR pins and stuff. I'm just kinda playing Devil's Advocate.) I've seen WAY more people who don't like Hot Topic. *Sighs*
(No, I don't think they should ban Hot Topic, I mean to say they're not playing by their own rules.)
Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:05 am
Hmm... I'm a Christian here but not a baptized one.
Santa Claus is just an imaginary character. Yes, he does bring happiness/warmth to children with no parents, down with illness and etc.
"Oooo... Santa Claus is coming to town! Presents! Weee!"
Instead of happily giving away presents to children.
I think Santa Claus should be doing more charity work. Give out presents to the needy children instead.
Santa Claus should be trained to say the real meaning of Xmas also. Probably he should start singing along with a church choir & also start telling story about the birth of Jesus instead of "Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Xmas!"
NO Birth of Jesus = NO Xmas = NO Santa Claus
I think it's time to have another character called the Angel who can clearly conveys Xmas message.
I believe my Santa Claus is Jesus because he's the one who really give gifts to everyone of us. Indeed, he has blessed me with alot of things that you can't believe. It's just amazing with the power he can give and do.
Therefore, Xmas should be conveyed with the right message instead of just celebrating Xmas & getting Xmas presents. We should also learn more about the "real Santa Claus" aka Jesus.
Santa Claus is just an imaginary character. Yes, he does bring happiness/warmth to children with no parents, down with illness and etc.
"Oooo... Santa Claus is coming to town! Presents! Weee!"
Instead of happily giving away presents to children.
I think Santa Claus should be doing more charity work. Give out presents to the needy children instead.
Santa Claus should be trained to say the real meaning of Xmas also. Probably he should start singing along with a church choir & also start telling story about the birth of Jesus instead of "Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Xmas!"
NO Birth of Jesus = NO Xmas = NO Santa Claus
I think it's time to have another character called the Angel who can clearly conveys Xmas message.
I believe my Santa Claus is Jesus because he's the one who really give gifts to everyone of us. Indeed, he has blessed me with alot of things that you can't believe. It's just amazing with the power he can give and do.
Therefore, Xmas should be conveyed with the right message instead of just celebrating Xmas & getting Xmas presents. We should also learn more about the "real Santa Claus" aka Jesus.
Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:11 pm
I skimmed over majority of the posts in this thread and it surprises me that no one mentioned what Christmas is actually about or at least, what it was originally about. As much as I hate to bring up religious issues, seeing as they tend to start heated debates and this is definitely not the board for that, Jesus was not born on Christmas day. In fact he was most likely born in July or sometime during the late Spring. Christmas was originally a Pagan winter festival. Christians changed the celebration of Jesus' birthday to December 25th to conflict with the pagan holiday that was celebrated at the same time. Eventually the two holidays merged a bit, which brought about the use of the Christmas tree {which is actually another pagan ritual}.